Question:
>In my opinion, Cliff Burton made Metallica. He might not have been the motor >or >the the material, but he was the un heralded arranger that never got credit.
come on! no offense, but Metallica is and was James Hetfield. he wrote most of the older stuff (i haven’t followed them since 1988), and the Metallica sound is indisputably his tight, downpicked guitar riffs coupled with his barked vocals. he (along with Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman of Slayer) pretty much wrote the book on modern metal riffage. plus, Burton is pretty much buried in the mix on the three albums he played on. I was a Metallica fan from the early days, and I saw them live opening for Ozzy in ‘86. but for the life of me, I will never understand why people think he was so great. i think it is a case of the ‘dying young syndrome’. he was a solid metal player, but come on, I could list dozens of metal players who are at least his equal technically (which, be honest, isn’t really saying that much!), not to mention more influential. I just think he has been massively overrated. to e-mail me, just remove "noshite" from the address. :)
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Cliff was an above average metal bass player, but certainly not the best.. he is one of my favorites though, but Steve Harris is da man.. as far as Lp’s comment about post And Justice For All releases, Metallica sold out.. I am not a total metalhead, I love Jazz, Fusion, some techno, industrial, oldies, classic rock, etc, but the reason I listened to Metallica is because they quite simply were one of the best HM/Thrash bands around, and I just do not care for their brand of commercial rock.. Just sign me: A former Metallica fan. In article >In my opinion, Cliff Burton made Metallica. He
might not have been the motor >or >the the material, but he was the un heralded
arranger that never got credit. > come on! no offense, but Metallica is and was
James Hetfield. he wrote most > of the older stuff (i haven’t followed them since
1988), and the Metallica > sound is indisputably his tight, downpicked guitar
riffs coupled with his > barked vocals. he (along with Kerry King and Jeff
Hanneman of Slayer) pretty > much wrote the book on modern metal riffage. plus,
Burton is pretty much > buried in the mix on the three albums he played on. > I was a Metallica fan from the early days, and I
saw them live opening for Ozzy > in ‘86. but for the life of me, I will never
understand why people think he was > so great. i think it is a case of the ‘dying young
syndrome’. he was a solid > metal player, but come on, I could list dozens of
metal players who are at > least his equal technically (which, be honest,
isn’t really saying that much!), > not to mention more influential. I just think he
has been massively overrated. > to e-mail me, just remove "noshite" from the
address. :) — Before you buy.
Response:
And you are a bass player!!! Not to be aggressive, but it seems as if you might be missing something. You might not like his playing or appreciate it, but he delivered on the finer aspects of the early albums. Saying that guitar playing is like saying Ozzy is Sabbath. In one sense you are right, but without that Sabbath bass, a lot of the sound would be missing. Obviously they cold not continue without Hetfield, but what makes a band not a mediocre one is what he delivered on. There downfall is not due to changes in genre or pop, it is Cfiff being gone. No coincidence. That thing about dying young is a crock. He delivers on the goods. He was not famous enough to be remebered as a mediocre talent.
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I sold the Black Album after listening to it for a week and searching for a pits. I think that there egos let them belive that what they are writing is any better than any local cable access metal band.
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I goofed. >I wouldn’t say that Gordon was all that much of a singer or guitar player >either.
But without those geniously quirky songs, it would only be a guy overplaying on the bass. >Flyin’ the Flannel" and "Mr. Machinery Operator" were the other LPs. >They were never able to deliver upon the promise that was "Ragin’ Full On". >I wanted to like the stuff, but… The Live Totempole e.p. was good, >however. Watt’s solo "Ballhog or Tugboat" [the title a reference to the two >types of bass players] was good. Haven’t heard his other, newer stuff yet, >so I don’t know. Has anyone heard it?
I’ve met Watt briefly a few times when Firehose was still together. I saw him solo twice and with Firehose three times. Ragin Full On is incredible. From Ohio I think is a bit lacking. If’n is in my mind just as good as Ragin. Flyin’ comes pretty close. I saw Firehose preview a lot of the songs from MR. Machinery, and they were great live, but the record was a big let down. By the way, the bass sound on Ragin is totally weird. I wonder how he did it. It calmed down more and more as the albums progressed. On Mr. Machinery, it is almost too tame. Live totem was a great tour.
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Cliff Burton did have good skill……ORION from Master of Puppets and Anastesia – Pulling teeth form Kill ‘Em All was his gems…… -Metallica Fan Forever
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cliff was an above average metal bass player, but > certainly not the best.. he is one of my favorites > though, but Steve Harris is da man.. as far as Lp’s > comment about post And Justice For All releases, > Metallica sold out.. I am not a total metalhead, I > love Jazz, Fusion, some techno, industrial, oldies, > classic rock, etc, but the reason I listened to > Metallica is because they quite simply were one of > the best HM/Thrash bands around, and I just do not > care for their brand of commercial rock.. > Just sign me: > A former Metallica fan. > In article > >In my opinion, Cliff Burton made Metallica. He > might not have been the motor > >or > >the the material, but he was the un heralded > arranger that never got credit. > come on! no offense, but Metallica is and was > James Hetfield. he wrote most > of the older stuff (i haven’t followed them since > 1988), and the Metallica > sound is indisputably his tight, downpicked guitar > riffs coupled with his > barked vocals. he (along with Kerry King and Jeff > Hanneman of Slayer) pretty > much wrote the book on modern metal riffage. plus, > Burton is pretty much > buried in the mix on the three albums he played on. > I was a Metallica fan from the early days, and I > saw them live opening for Ozzy > in ‘86. but for the life of me, I will never > understand why people think he was > so great. i think it is a case of the ‘dying young > syndrome’. he was a solid > metal player, but come on, I could list dozens of > metal players who are at > least his equal technically (which, be honest, > isn’t really saying that much!), > not to mention more influential. I just think he > has been massively overrated. > to e-mail me, just remove "noshite" from the > address. :) > — > Before you buy.
Response:
In my opinion, Cliff Burton made Metallica. He might not have been the motor or the the material, but he was the un heralded arranger that never got credit. It is a know fact that "And Justice For All" has his mark all over it. It is also what I think is there last quality output. What he did was all theoretical in terms of time changes as well as classically influenced harmonies. With the Black album that was all out the window. Maybe they turned to pop, but I think that they didn’t have the means. His counter melodic parst do not hit you on the head and are completely supportive of the song. This is more that eveident in the slow part of Orion, in which the harmonies weave in and out of eachother and the bass subtly goes through a variation of its initial theme. His soloing is also phenomenal. It isn’t about showboating as much as it is about true improvising in the classical sense. Which is much differerent than that of the jazz sense. He was by for the most musically trained of the bunch. What they do now I am sorry to say is almost embarassing. >My early favorites were Mike Watt [Minutemen/Firehose], Chuck Dukowski >[Black Flag], Brian Ritchie [Violent Femmes], and Diane Chai [Alley >Cats/Zarkons], but I was a Hollywood punk and they were who I saw. I still >love them, but now I have many others as well…
It is nice to see some of these people getting mentioned. I wonder what Black Flag bassists. Brian Ritchie completely takes over where their lack of a true drummer is needed. Mike Watt is the workingmans bass hero. It is too bad that Minutemen ended like it did and the fIREHOSE got predictable. Mr. Machinery Operator or whatever it was called was a big let down.
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5:29 PM: > In my opinion, Cliff Burton made Metallica. [...] What they do now I > am sorry to say is almost embarassing.
I’ve had this discussion many times over and it’s not really endable. I heartily enjoy their newer and older stuff [though 'the black album', "Metallica" is by far my least favorite.] Just think of it as two different bands – like "Entertainment" era Gang of Four vs. ‘I Love a Man in Uniform’ era… or the two versions of TSOL… or, well there are probably several others. > … Mike Watt…Chuck Dukowski…Brian Ritchie…Diane Chai… > It is nice to see some of these people getting mentioned. I wonder what > perhaps Christopher tm thinks of the slew of other > Black Flag bassists.
[or drummers... or singers?] I like Kira Roessler a heck of a lot, but for me Chuck was as much Black Flag as was Greg Ginn. The other bass players weren’t really around long enough [or I wasn't there quite early enough] for me to be to be impacted by them… [two side notes: If you have ever seen the 'Slip It In' video - a song on which Kira was the bass player, you also get to see footage of Chuck playing... that always bothered me a little for some reason. And an ex-girlfriend of mine was dating Chuck "back in the day". He taught her to play bass. When I found this out, I begged her to show me what he taught her. Sure enough... 'Paranoid'.] anyway… > Brian Ritchie completely takes over where their lack of a > true drummer is needed.
I wouldn’t say that Gordon was all that much of a singer or guitar player either. But they sure worked well together. Seeing them in 85 [86???] remains one of the top three best shows of my life. Fishbone opened. Damn! >Mike Watt is the workingmans bass hero. It is too bad > that Minutemen ended like it did
I was heartbroken. > and the fIREHOSE got predictable. Mr. > Machinery Operator or whatever it was called was a big let down.
"Flyin’ the Flannel" and "Mr. Machinery Operator" were the other LPs. They were never able to deliver upon the promise that was "Ragin’ Full On". I wanted to like the stuff, but… The Live Totempole e.p. was good, however. Watt’s solo "Ballhog or Tugboat" [the title a reference to the two types of bass players] was good. Haven’t heard his other, newer stuff yet, so I don’t know. Has anyone heard it? —– "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
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who was/ is Cliff Burton???? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
>who was/ is Cliff Burton???
he was the bassist on Metallica’s first 3 albums. he died in a bus accident in late 1986 while on tour in Europe. to e-mail me, just remove "noshite" from the address. :)
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He died on the Road to Coppenhagen. The tour bus hit some ice on April 23, 1986…..yes there was ice then. The bus fell on top of Cliff…..the other memebers survived. Die Hard Fan here! R.I.P. Cliff Burton!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->who was/ is Cliff Burton??? > he was the bassist on Metallica’s first 3 albums. he died in a bus accident in > late 1986 while on tour in Europe. > to e-mail me, just remove "noshite" from the address. :)
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I don’t think it’s possible to say something along the lines of "Burton was better than Pastorius, but Bootsy Collins is best of all." Apples and oranges… and all are excellent in their own way. You may be able to argue the Burton/Newsted thing, but it merely comes down to taste. IMO Cliff had a unique and interesting playing style [and personality] that made him immediately likeable. Jason is either more technically proficient than Cliff, or has better equipment – you pick. Both are/were great metal players though so why choose a "favorite"? My early favorites were Mike Watt [Minutemen/Firehose], Chuck Dukowski [Black Flag], Brian Ritchie [Violent Femmes], and Diane Chai [Alley Cats/Zarkons], but I was a Hollywood punk and they were who I saw. I still love them, but now I have many others as well… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Although most bass players might agree that Cliff was a great Metal > bass player, I think very few would say he was the best bassist overall. > -Bryan > He was amazing, and Anaethesia (pulling teeth) is quite possibly the best > solo i’ve heard. Jason Newsted is no where as good. No doubt someone will > come along and go ‘no way, Pastorius is a god etc’ but Burton’s the best in > my book. > Any thoughts? > Rob
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He was amazing, and Anaethesia (pulling teeth) is quite possibly the best solo i’ve heard. Jason Newsted is no where as good. No doubt someone will come along and go ‘no way, Pastorius is a god etc’ but Burton’s the best in my book. Any thoughts? Rob
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That is the cool thing about opinions, your entitled to yours and it is no more valid than mine. Although most bass players might agree that Cliff was a great Metal bass player, I think very few would say he was the best bassist overall. I would be in that group, he was a good metal bass player, but past that I don’t care much for his playing. But that is just my personal preference, although I wish he were still around and playing it’s always unfortunate when someone dies, especially the way Cliff did (way to premature in my opinion). My $.02 worth… -Bryan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >He was amazing, and Anaethesia (pulling teeth) is quite possibly the best >solo i’ve heard. Jason Newsted is no where as good. No doubt someone will >come along and go ‘no way, Pastorius is a god etc’ but Burton’s the best in >my book. >Any thoughts? >Rob