Question:
I understand all your points. BUT, I still need to learn YYZ (rush) because it’s the drummers request. Both he and the guitarist already know it. So… go away while I work on my speed….=) Dan Carwin practice, practice, practice.
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> hey-ive been playing the bass for like a year now. im decent, for the amount > of practice ive had. but i need to increase my speed. anyone know how i can > do so? > thanks > nick
Practise!! Excercise!! Play scales, arpeggios etc. Do it with syncopation (Have a tune and rythm in mind) when you do practice. Use a midi player and play with the drums. Lock in with it. Speed is an illusion. It is WHEN, you do things, not how QUICK you do things that creates the impression of speed. Timing. Learn that. Speed is not important. — CandyApple ‘64
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> All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its > some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and > that, is supposed to be a good thing. > The goal should not be Speed, but the Music!!!
First off, I mostly agree with Rich. BUT… 1) I don’t want a steady diet of it (or much of any one thing), but I do enjoy speed metal. It’s an art in itself. 2) Musical comes first – but speed is also good. Even in a laid back groove, there are times a burst of speed really makes the difference. 3) Finally, 90% or more of the people I run across want their money for nothin and their chicks or dudes for free. This mentality wants it all easy. There’s no shortcut to speed for most of us – it takes practice. Just like being good at making music in general requires practice. TANSTAAFL. -Miles
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If you’re playing any faster than Rocco you’re too fast. Speed without content is just so much mental masturbation and little more than an exercise in musically pointless showing off that’s lost on everybody except for other shredwankers (unless you happen to be as tasteful as Billy Sheehan in the process). JD
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its > some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and > that, is supposed to be a good thing. > The goal should not be Speed, but the Music!!! > First off, I mostly agree with Rich. > BUT… > 1) I don’t want a steady diet of it (or much of any one thing), > but I do enjoy speed metal. It’s an art in itself. > 2) Musical comes first – but speed is also good. Even in a laid > back groove, there are times a burst of speed really makes > the difference. > 3) Finally, 90% or more of the people I run across want their > money for nothin and their chicks or dudes for free. This > mentality wants it all easy. There’s no shortcut to speed > for most of us – it takes practice. Just like being good > at making music in general requires practice. TANSTAAFL. > -Miles
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>> content is just so much mental masturbation and little more than an >exercise > in musically pointless showing off that’s lost on everybody except for >other > shredwankers >First of all, taste is subjective. Your response sounds condescending >and prejudiced. You don’t like it? Great. No reason for name calling >or >belittling people. >Or are you just jealous? 8^
Yeah…I’ll bet J.D.’s jealous because he doesn’t have enough indiscretion to be a shredwanker. BTW, is a shredwanker the same thing as a song-shredder? In the mid-70’s a gentleman informed me of my fantastic song-shredding tendencies…Initially, I was offended. But, after listening to some tapes, I agreed with him and to this day am grateful that he bothered to address it… Hawkeye
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->Neither do I. The bottom line for me is that I like music where difficult ->stuff is being done. I like music where tasty stuff is being done. Michael — "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying." – Woody Allen
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>I want to play music for 3 hours that is appreciated for the whole time… >not play ‘impressively’ for 45 minutes and make everyone tired of us. I know >I can only take virtuoso bass playing for 1/2 hour before I get sick of >hearing it….
1/2 hour! Ya got me….5 minutes and I’m gone…I buy all the "bass gods" solo cds and usually don’t last past the second song….No, it isn’t ADD…I can listen to Jamerson, Sklar. East, Nathan Watts, Hood, Cogbill, Leech, Felder, Rainey, Rocco, George Porter, McCartney, Anthony Jackson, Dunn (just to name a few of the all-time song-framers) for hours at a time…..The subtleties and nuances are what make a bassist notable… I realize my tirade has nothing to do with the original request for speed tips. However, I do thank this world-wide audience for your tolerance and patronage. Hawkeye "over the hill but still looking up"
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> If you’re playing any faster than Rocco you’re too fast. Speed without > content is just so much mental masturbation and little more than an exercise > in musically pointless showing off that’s lost on everybody except for other > shredwankers (unless you happen to be as tasteful as Billy Sheehan in the > process).
First of all, taste is subjective. Your response sounds condescending and prejudiced. You don’t like it? Great. No reason for name calling or belittling people. Or are you just jealous? 8^) -Miles
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Damn straight man. I was always fascinated by the speed of guitarist like van halen, vai etc but when i heard al di meola i was stunned. Sure he may be pretty darn speedy but when hes not its so much more moving. Same applies to Billy Corgan. His solos are that fast (some of them are thought) but they f***ing rock. Ive always wanted to play fast so i now do this techniques but whats the point if you dont know what the hell youre playing? Harman
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its > some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and > that, is supposed to be a good thing. > The goal should not be Speed, but the Music!!! > First off, I mostly agree with Rich. > BUT… > 1) I don’t want a steady diet of it (or much of any one thing), > but I do enjoy speed metal. It’s an art in itself. > 2) Musical comes first – but speed is also good. Even in a laid > back groove, there are times a burst of speed really makes > the difference. > 3) Finally, 90% or more of the people I run across want their > money for nothin and their chicks or dudes for free. This > mentality wants it all easy. There’s no shortcut to speed > for most of us – it takes practice. Just like being good > at making music in general requires practice. TANSTAAFL. > -Miles
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> hey-ive been playing the bass for like a year now. im decent, for the amount > of practice ive had. but i need to increase my speed. anyone know how i can > do so? > thanks > nick
All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and that, is supposed to be a good thing. The goal should not be Speed, but the Music!!! The most soulful player can say more with one properly placed note in the music than any flame throwing note burner!!!!! So it is with Bass, and the groove. It’s where the notes go with that of the drummer’s hits, or should I say the spaces left by the drums and bass, that is very important. Too many notes just clogs up the groove. It has to have the spaces to breath too. You have to learn to weave your way around the groove. There are times when you float on the water, there are times when you swim in the water, and there are times when you dive through the water. However, there are times when you will need speed for such things as drum/bass features or soloing. Let me approach the subject of speed in this manner. Before you can think of speed, you have to NOT *THINK* of Speed!!!! You have to *Think* Music first!!!! If it doesn’t relate and fit the music, this becomes an exercise in EGO, not Music!!!! To do so, is the very conscious thought of SPEED, that most times, prevents success of its execution. Speed comes not when you want it, but when the music wants it!!!!! So now, what do I mean by that confusing statement. Well let’s assume that certain things are already in place. You have practiced the basics of finger techniques used in the different styles. All your fingers can be placed in use!!!! You have mastered the execution, and speed is the only thing now most desired. With that in place, you have to develop LISTENING with Distant Ears! That is to *Listen* to yourself *IN* The Music, While You Are Playing, as if *Someone Else* is Doing The Playing!!!! It’s Not *YOU*, but Someone Else in the Water’s flow in the Music!!!!!! You know how it is when the music brings a smile to your face when listening to some really great grooves that are played by others. Well, this other person now, Is YOU!!!! Making yourself smile is now the goal. This only will happen through your Listening To You, In The Music!!! Who is not You. Now, As You Are Playing, You Have To HEAR The SPEED that is NOT THERE Yet FIRST!!! If It doesn’t Relate, or Fit the MUSIC, it’s going to be a Crash and Burn for the MUSIC!!! You CAN’T Do That to the music for the sake of the EGO!!!! You SERVE The Music, It’s Not The Other Way Around!!! HEAR IT, BEFORE YOU PLAYED IT!!! And,… THEN, GO FOR IT!!!! The fingers will know what to do with the 32nd and 64th notes with those other things in place I had mentioned. They will not fail you because the MUSIC will support the speed, and be a better thing for it. The music has to *make* people smile to hear such a thing happen. If that doesn’t happen, what’s the point. EGO???? That will come off like a kid splashing around making Waves of Conflict in the NATURAL Flow of The Music. The Bass and Drums, ARE the Current of the Water within the Music!, and the Listener doesn’t like to swim in the turbulence a storm of misplaced speed creates in that water!!!! Would You???? You have to hear it in the music, before you’ve played it in the music, to know if the Listener will enjoy the speed placed in the *their* Music. It’s not yours!!! Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Service * Repair * Modifications * Design Engineering Live Sound & Studio Production
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>All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its >some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and >that, is supposed to be a good thing.
I don’t hear this NEARLY as much as I did in the eighties.
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Rich – Your’ is probably the best post I’ve seen on this board. It’s always the same thing for me. I practice my lines and work of all this intricate stuff. By the time we are ready to play the song live, I’ve backed it way, way off. That’s because the drums demand I do so… that’s because the *Rhythm* is the important thing. I want to play music for 3 hours that is appreciated for the whole time… not play ‘impressively’ for 45 minutes and make everyone tired of us. I know I can only take virtuoso bass playing for 1/2 hour before I get sick of hearing it and want to get out of the room. I don’t want to play like that. In other words… I’m playing for those who want to hear songs… not for other bass players! I’ve become happy with that special 2 bar lick that happens one in the song at just the right spot.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hey-ive been playing the bass for like a year now. im decent, for the amount > of practice ive had. but i need to increase my speed. anyone know how i can > do so? > thanks > nick > All I hear from today’s musicians, is how can I go FASTER. Like its > some kind of ego trip to be the lightning fast note sprayer player, and > that, is supposed to be a good thing. > The goal should not be Speed, but the Music!!! > The most soulful player can say more with one properly placed note in > the music than any flame throwing note burner!!!!! > So it is with Bass, and the groove. It’s where the notes go with that > of the drummer’s hits, or should I say the spaces left by the drums and > bass, that is very important. > Too many notes just clogs up the groove. It has to have the spaces to > breath too. > You have to learn to weave your way around the groove. There are times > when you float on the water, there are times when you swim in the water, > and there are times when you dive through the water. > However, there are times when you will need speed for such things as > drum/bass features or soloing. > Let me approach the subject of speed in this manner. > Before you can think of speed, you have to NOT *THINK* of Speed!!!! > You have to *Think* Music first!!!! > If it doesn’t relate and fit the music, this becomes an exercise in EGO, > not Music!!!! > To do so, is the very conscious thought of SPEED, that most times, > prevents success of its execution. > Speed comes not when you want it, but when the music wants it!!!!! > So now, what do I mean by that confusing statement. Well let’s assume > that certain things are already in place. You have practiced the basics > of finger techniques used in the different styles. All your fingers can > be placed in use!!!! You have mastered the execution, and speed is the > only thing now most desired. > With that in place, you have to develop LISTENING with Distant Ears! > That is to *Listen* to yourself *IN* The Music, > While You Are Playing, > as if *Someone Else* is Doing The Playing!!!! > It’s Not *YOU*, but Someone Else in the Water’s flow in the Music!!!!!! > You know how it is when the music brings a smile to your face when > listening to some really great grooves that are played by others. Well, > this other person now, Is YOU!!!! > Making yourself smile is now the goal. This only will happen through > your Listening To You, In The Music!!! Who is not You. > Now, As You Are Playing, You Have To HEAR The SPEED that is NOT THERE > Yet FIRST!!! > If It doesn’t Relate, or Fit the MUSIC, it’s going to be a Crash and > Burn for the MUSIC!!! You CAN’T Do That to the music for the sake of > the EGO!!!! > You SERVE The Music, It’s Not The Other Way Around!!! > HEAR IT, BEFORE YOU PLAYED IT!!! And,… THEN, GO FOR IT!!!! > The fingers will know what to do with the 32nd and 64th notes with those > other things in place I had mentioned. They will not fail you because > the MUSIC will support the speed, and be a better thing for it. The > music has to *make* people smile to hear such a thing happen. > If that doesn’t happen, what’s the point. EGO???? > That will come off like a kid splashing around making Waves of Conflict > in the NATURAL Flow of The Music. > The Bass and Drums, ARE the Current of the Water within the Music!, and > the Listener doesn’t like to swim in the turbulence a storm of misplaced > speed creates in that water!!!! > Would You???? > You have to hear it in the music, > before you’ve played it in the music, > to know if the Listener will enjoy the > speed placed in the *their* Music. > It’s not yours!!! > Regards, > Rich Koerner, > Time Electronics. > http://www.timeelect.com > Service * Repair * Modifications * Design Engineering > Live Sound & Studio Production
Response:
waht exactly do you guys mean by groove? Like the tightness between drummer and bassist? and playing with a metronome is the best way to get timing down…. a little anectdote……there’s a guitarist I’ve played with recently, the kid is the best guitarist I’ve ever played with, he doesn’t try a lot of wanking tricks, he doesn’t have an attitude, and best of all, he;s a walking metronome. To be a goofy guy, he’ll keep the beat going on his foot, and then play purposefully off beat to try and mess things up for fun, but when we get down to playing, we just need a drummer who learned off a metronome. ‘nomes are the way to go…… just my two cents beau
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Groove is more than just tightness between the bass and drums. Groove is feel; it is the rhythmical tension set up within the beat. See, the beat is not some instantaneous point in time that occurs in regular intervals. The beat is a thick block of time, yet deceptively small. You can play on top of the beat: __v__, as in Latin styles. You can play ahead of the beat: v____, as in Ska. Or you can play laid back, behind the beat: ____v, as in Swing styles. These changes are subtle, but they are real. The block of time that makes up the beat is not the same as the length of a note, like a quarter note or something. The width of the block of time that makes up the beat depends on tempo. Slower tempos have a beat with a greater width, which allows for greater variation in groove. Faster tempos have a beat with a small width, which allows for only small variation in groove. Take a drummer, for example. He/She can create a groove with only the kick and snare. Have the kick play every down beat (quarter note) and play theses notes "on top of" the beat. Have the snare play on beats 2 and 4 and play these notes "behind the beat." By doing this, rhythmical tension is set up between the kick, that beats on top of the beat, and the snare, that plays behind the beat. On beats 2 and 4, the kick and snare flam, that is, they do not strike exactly at the same time. The snare is just ever so slightly behind the kick. Throw a hi-hat in to play on top of the beat, move the kick to play ahead of the beat, and keep the snare behind the beat, and you have one hell of a groove. For another example, listen to the big bands of the 1940’s. "In the Mood" for example. The bass is right on top of the beat, but the sax parts are VERY laid back, behind the beat. It is the rhythmical tension between these two instruments that makes the swing band SWING!! Groove is not just dependent on the rhythm section. Groove relies on the whole band!! This is why groove is much much MUCH harder to play than playing fast. When you play fast, the groove looses its expression by the very nature of groove being a function of tempo. There is not room to manipulate the beat. Groove, man. It is all groove. – Feldspar.
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->Groove is more than just tightness between the bass and drums. <SNIP> Wow, excellent post! Thanks! Michael — "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying." – Woody Allen
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You can have groove and play fast; look at Rocco Prestia. OTOH, he’s a veritable bass deity, so I think I’ll save myself the carpal tunnel and just work on groove… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Groove is more than just tightness between the bass and drums. Groove is > feel; it is the rhythmical tension set up within the beat. See, the beat is > not some instantaneous point in time that occurs in regular intervals. The > beat is a thick block of time, yet deceptively small. You can play on top > of the beat: __v__, as in Latin styles. You can play ahead of the beat: > v____, as in Ska. Or you can play laid back, behind the beat: ____v, as in > Swing styles. These changes are subtle, but they are real. The block of > time that makes up the beat is not the same as the length of a note, like a > quarter note or something. The width of the block of time that makes up the > beat depends on tempo. Slower tempos have a beat with a greater width, > which allows for greater variation in groove. Faster tempos have a beat > with a small width, which allows for only small variation in groove. > Take a drummer, for example. He/She can create a groove with only the kick > and snare. Have the kick play every down beat (quarter note) and play > theses notes "on top of" the beat. Have the snare play on beats 2 and 4 and > play these notes "behind the beat." By doing this, rhythmical tension is > set up between the kick, that beats on top of the beat, and the snare, that > plays behind the beat. On beats 2 and 4, the kick and snare flam, that is, > they do not strike exactly at the same time. The snare is just ever so > slightly behind the kick. Throw a hi-hat in to play on top of the beat, > move the kick to play ahead of the beat, and keep the snare behind the beat, > and you have one hell of a groove. > For another example, listen to the big bands of the 1940’s. "In the Mood" > for example. The bass is right on top of the beat, but the sax parts are > VERY laid back, behind the beat. It is the rhythmical tension between these > two instruments that makes the swing band SWING!! Groove is not just > dependent on the rhythm section. Groove relies on the whole band!! > This is why groove is much much MUCH harder to play than playing fast. When > you play fast, the groove looses its expression by the very nature of groove > being a function of tempo. There is not room to manipulate the beat. > Groove, man. It is all groove. – Feldspar.
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This is the finest explaination of this concept I have ever seen. It should be required reading, and thank you, sir. I have consistently failed when trying to explain this. This post does assume some knowledge, but not a lot. It sure beats "just don’t over-play it, an if a good ground is required, do it!" (that’s probably as close I ever came to explaining the "groove") look back in the thread to get the whole thing, if you missed it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Groove is more than just tightness between the bass and drums. Groove is >feel; it is the rhythmical tension set up within the beat.
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I agree with everything said. Groove is the bedrock, what the music requires, and what people ultimately remember about a bands performance. With that said, I must sympathize with the original question. Sometimes you need to play a riff. No need playing a riff fast if it’s sloppy, it’ll just sound like noise. Take it slow, it will annoy the heck out of the family/neighbords, dogs and cats, but over time, the riffs will just come. It will happen like magic, you’ll be surprised that you played it clean, at the right time, and your bandmates will smile. Just start playing a riff, turn on the T.V., empty your mind, and train those muscles and fingers ! Before you buy.
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try learning a good riff higher up the neck and getting up to speed say day tripper by the beatles gradually drop it down a key at a time until you get back up to speed in no time at all you will be able to play the riff anywhere on the neck at speed and swap from top to bottom giving you a good speed co-odernation technich which will give you better speed technic on over all playing Mark in the uk. playing for 20 years
Response:
Excellent advice. I say the same thing! Playing with excellent time is the absolute and fundamental goal as a bass player — ESPECIALLY AS A BASS PLAYER!!! Groove comes with excellent timing. You MUST be able to play like a metronome even without a metronome. Speed? Careful not to confuse playing fast with playing well. GROOVE GROOVE GROOVE!! You’ll find playing a groove with excellent time is far harder than playing a flurry of quick notes.
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> FELDSPAR STATED: "You’ll find playing a groove with excellent time is
far harder than playing a flurry of quick notes" < Truer words were never spoken! Add playing with excellent tone to excellent meter and you’ve got a bass player who can make a full-time living in the music biz, even if he/she cannot play ANY fast riffs. Take away tone and meter, and add blinding speed and a few of those "wow, how did he do that"s to the mix and you’ll have a bass OWNER who will amaze the hell out of 2 or 3 people, but will likely NEVER support himself/herself in the music biz. I’m a groove player to the bone and yes, I can RIP notes as fast as anyone I’ve heard when that 1 out of 50 tunes calls for it. Most setlists of course, have only about 45 tunes, so that’s how important ripping notes is in relation to making a living in the biz. Yes, it’s so much easier to rip alot of notes than to groove, as you basically stated (Feldspar), and I couldn’t agree with that statement more. I walked into a nightclub the other night and the band was playing "Maria, Maria"; the new tune by Santana. Within 8 bars of the song, I KNEW I was listening to a REAL bassist because he was playing the tune note-for-note (all 3 or 4 notes, or however many there are in the entire song), while grooving tightly with his drummer and the rest of the band. Could he play fast? I don’t care and neither did the 100 or so people packed onto the dance floor like sardines. Groove is where it’s at! — Some say being a bassist is all about seeing how many notes and technical tricks one can squeeze into each and every bar in a furious effort to demonstrate one’s "prowess" on the instrument… people who feel that way should just dust off the 6-string in their attic again… Before you buy.
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->practice. …with a metronome. I find that by first setting the ‘nome at slower speed than normal and then practicing to get EVERY note perfectly, and then upping the speed to slightly faster than I can play a part accurately will force me up to that speed. Then I up the speed some more and do it again. When I finally go back to the correct speed, I can usually play it effortlessly and accurately. A side effect is that the ‘nome will usually goad me into continuing to practice when I’d have otherwise stopped to rest. It helps me with endurance that way. Michael — "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying." – Woody Allen
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hey-ive been playing the bass for like a year now. im decent, for the amount of practice ive had. but i need to increase my speed. anyone know how i can do so? thanks nick
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practice.
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Speed ALWAYS follows accuracy! Practice the riff annoyingly slow, using a very slow metronome beat, taking care to get the proper tone with each note, and taking care to insure your fretting hand is in the proper posture, and you’ll be well on your way to increasing speed. Of course, you should EVENTUALLY and very grudgingly increase the speed of the metronome as you advance. Again: speed ALWAYS follows accuracy! Last, but not least; speed isn’t NEARLY as important as GROOVE (IMHO), so work on grooving 10 times harder than you do speed and you’ll be well on your way to being a bass player instead of a bass OWNER. Good luck and I hope that helps – > hey-ive been playing the bass for like a year now. im decent, for the amount > of practice ive had. but i need to increase my speed. anyone know how i can > do so? > thanks > nick
– Some say being a bassist is all about seeing how many notes and technical tricks one can squeeze into each and every bar in a furious effort to demonstrate one’s "prowess" on the instrument… people who feel that way should just dust off the 6-string in their attic again… Before you buy.