Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid > of > that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t > have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a > "perceived" > benefit. > Typical liberal/socialist attitude. "Why should the owners have the freedom > to choose their own neck relief? They need to have their relief dictated to > them, they don’t know better. Bass owners are just deluding themselves that > they might want or need a different amount of relief, we can’t allow them > the freedom to just set their own preferences! They need to have us make > their choices for them!"
ROTLMAO!! Seriously, I am EXTREMELY picky with relief, and setup (just Ask Mike Tobias, Roger Sadowsky). I have never had any issues being "forced" into a relief that is pre-manufactured. It is a "security" thing, and not much more. I doubt those that own a graphite neck with a truss rod every actually use the thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Yes, Derek has it right. Forget the strength issue, it’s the set up. I built Kramer’s for years and the early ones had very expensive aircraft aluminum blanks tha did not bend at all. If you like the way the set up comes through fine, otherwise your dead in the water. I have never played a ZON I liked, the set up doesn’t feel right , with a truss rod I know I could make it feel right. Gerry G.
Response:
> ROTLMAO!!
I’m glad that you took that as humor, as intended. > Seriously, I am EXTREMELY picky with relief, and setup (just Ask Mike > Tobias, Roger Sadowsky). I have never had any issues being "forced" into a > relief that is pre-manufactured. It is a "security" thing, and not much > more. I doubt those that own a graphite neck with a truss rod every actually > use the thing.
I think that the vast majority of bass owners never touch their truss rods, there seems to be a superstitious fear of the things. Just the same, having the option to make adjustments is a nice feature. As Rob pointed out, composite necks can be made super-stiff, or they can be made to have some "give" to them. A truss rod would be useless in a super-stiff one, but can be desirable in a softer one. A builder might use differing stiffnesses for the different tones they produce. A flexible composite neck is still a good thing, because it won’t go out of whack on you every time the weather changes. It’s all about freedom of choice, right?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > If everyone used the same tension strings, or played the same way, there > > would be no need for truss rod adjustment on a graphite neck. > Tension on a graphite neck has little effect on relief after a certain > point. It’s kind of interesting how you can loosen the strings a whole step > down, and it doesn’t even change the relief much. > I wouldn’t expect it too. > That doesn’t address the issue that people prefer different levels of > relief depending on their playing style, internal belief system and the > tension of the strings – I’m using tension here in relation to the > floppyness of the strings, not to the amount of extra relief they impart > on the neck due to tension. > These issues don’t go away simply because the neck is rock solid. > If someone played with ultra floppy strings, maybe some sort of rubber > cored hybrid, they could easily want more relief than someone who has > near solid metal rods that barely move unless hit by mallets (but what > tone!).
You got me there! LOL!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This remains true regardless of the stability of the neck. > — Derek > — > Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand > http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
> The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid of > that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t > have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a "perceived" > benefit. > If everyone used the same tension strings, or played the same way, there > would be no need for truss rod adjustment on a graphite neck.
Tension on a graphite neck has little effect on relief after a certain point. It’s kind of interesting how you can loosen the strings a whole step down, and it doesn’t even change the relief much. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lots of people are completely happy with the setup they get from the > shop – and most of us here know how bad those can be. Lots of people > use pretty similar strings – again they would probably be perfectly > happy with the stock setup of their graphite neck bass. So, yes, most > people will never need to touch the truss rod on their graphite necked > bass – so I’m with you so far. > However, and here is the point at which you argument fails, there are > two strongly held (and in my opinion equally valid) arguments about neck > relief. > 1)There are those who hold that the fingerboard can and should be > perfectly flat – and that relief is for wimps. > 2)There are also those who hold that a certain amount of curve in the > neck is a good thing – and that flat necks are for wimps. > And never the twain shall meet. > If the graphite neck comes from the shop with relief then the flatties > will be unhappy, if it comes flat then the curvies will be unhappy. > Sure, one could order either a flat neck, or a neck with relief, but > that would mean a) that one never changes ones mind and b) the > instrument will never be sold or otherwise inherited by someone of the > opposite persuasion. > It’s a feature with a very real benefit that few people will ever see > the need to make use of. Which is why many manufacturers of graphite > necks choose not to include the truss rod – which adds complexity and > cost to the neck. Others choose to include a truss rod on all their > neck for the small number of people who can make use of that feature. > — Derek > — > Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand > http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
Uh-Oh… <duck behind screen, waiting for the following rant to fly over> — Henry! Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? A. To translate for the drummer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid > of > that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t > have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a > "perceived" > benefit. > Typical liberal/socialist attitude. "Why should the owners have the freedom > to choose their own neck relief? They need to have their relief dictated to > them, they don’t know better. Bass owners are just deluding themselves that > they might want or need a different amount of relief, we can’t allow them > the freedom to just set their own preferences! They need to have us make > their choices for them!"
Response:
> The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid of > that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t > have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a "perceived" > benefit.
Typical liberal/socialist attitude. "Why should the owners have the freedom to choose their own neck relief? They need to have their relief dictated to them, they don’t know better. Bass owners are just deluding themselves that they might want or need a different amount of relief, we can’t allow them the freedom to just set their own preferences! They need to have us make their choices for them!"
Response:
> > If everyone used the same tension strings, or played the same way, there > would be no need for truss rod adjustment on a graphite neck. > Tension on a graphite neck has little effect on relief after a certain > point. It’s kind of interesting how you can loosen the strings a whole step > down, and it doesn’t even change the relief much.
I wouldn’t expect it too. That doesn’t address the issue that people prefer different levels of relief depending on their playing style, internal belief system and the tension of the strings – I’m using tension here in relation to the floppyness of the strings, not to the amount of extra relief they impart on the neck due to tension. These issues don’t go away simply because the neck is rock solid. If someone played with ultra floppy strings, maybe some sort of rubber cored hybrid, they could easily want more relief than someone who has near solid metal rods that barely move unless hit by mallets (but what tone!). This remains true regardless of the stability of the neck. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
> The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid of > that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t > have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a "perceived" > benefit.
If everyone used the same tension strings, or played the same way, there would be no need for truss rod adjustment on a graphite neck. Lots of people are completely happy with the setup they get from the shop – and most of us here know how bad those can be. Lots of people use pretty similar strings – again they would probably be perfectly happy with the stock setup of their graphite neck bass. So, yes, most people will never need to touch the truss rod on their graphite necked bass – so I’m with you so far. However, and here is the point at which you argument fails, there are two strongly held (and in my opinion equally valid) arguments about neck relief. 1)There are those who hold that the fingerboard can and should be perfectly flat – and that relief is for wimps. 2)There are also those who hold that a certain amount of curve in the neck is a good thing – and that flat necks are for wimps. And never the twain shall meet. If the graphite neck comes from the shop with relief then the flatties will be unhappy, if it comes flat then the curvies will be unhappy. Sure, one could order either a flat neck, or a neck with relief, but that would mean a) that one never changes ones mind and b) the instrument will never be sold or otherwise inherited by someone of the opposite persuasion. It’s a feature with a very real benefit that few people will ever see the need to make use of. Which is why many manufacturers of graphite necks choose not to include the truss rod – which adds complexity and cost to the neck. Others choose to include a truss rod on all their neck for the small number of people who can make use of that feature. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
> Tension on a graphite neck has little effect on relief after a certain > point. It’s kind of interesting how you can loosen the strings a whole step > down, and it doesn’t even change the relief much.
Graphite composite necks are not all built the same Peter. Some are more "rubbery" than others. In fact, they (in bizarro world) could flex like rubber bands and be acceptable to some, as long as those buyers don’t have to compensate for seasonal changes. Right? It’s not "if they flex," or "how much," it’s about the weather changes. The amount of flex due to tension can vary, depending on the composites formula, or the structure of the composites (both by strand layout, or design of neck cross section)… but they should never need adjustment due to weather after they are adjusted/set. Personally, I never needed a truss rod with the composite necks I’ve owned, and life was good. Some other composite necked basses I’ve tried coould benefit from it, like some of the EARLY EARLY Zons, or so I’ve read… Glad to hear you like the Formula. — O< "Hey, who’s da’ U-boat Captain?" /() ^^ Slidell, LA
Response:
> I have an older Steinberger XQ, no truss rod. I guess the new > Steinbergers coming out will use Moses graphite necks….which use > truss rods. This seems ass-backwards to me. Isn’t the point of > having a graphite neck suppossed to a neck that is the same, time > after time?
The point of a truss rod is to make the relief adjustable. The point of a composite neck is that it will not change with humidity or temperature changes. In other words, when you adjust the relief, you know that it will stay that way, and not need adjusting when the humidity or temperature changes. > Argh.
Where did you get the idea that composite necks and truss rods are mutually exclusive? Why wouldn’t you want a neck that can be adjusted for different relief? The Moses neck addresses the shortcoming of composite necks without adjustability, that’s good.
Response:
> Hi, > I have an older Steinberger XQ, no truss rod. I guess the new > Steinbergers coming out will use Moses graphite necks….which use > truss rods. This seems ass-backwards to me. Isn’t the point of > having a graphite neck suppossed to a neck that is the same, time > after time?
Most people seem to be under the misapprehension that the truss rod is primarily a strengthening device – and in some neck designs it pays an important role in adding strength. However, the truss rod is also an adjusting device, allowing you to change the relief of the neck to suit your playing style, your choice of strings, and for seasonal changes in the wood of the neck due to differing temperature and relative humidity. With a graphite neck only the latter is rendered unnecessary – you set the neck up once and it should remain set up until you *choose* to change it for whatever reason. > Anyway…supposedly the Moses necks sound warmer than a typical all > graphite neck…any comments?
That would probably depend a lot on what it’s attached to. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
The "truss rod in the graphite composite neck thing" is purely to get rid of that objection for those that find it just too unbelievable that you don’t have to adjust the relief in such a neck. It is a feature with a "perceived" benefit.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I have an older Steinberger XQ, no truss rod. I guess the new > Steinbergers coming out will use Moses graphite necks….which use > truss rods. This seems ass-backwards to me. Isn’t the point of > having a graphite neck suppossed to a neck that is the same, time > after time? > Most people seem to be under the misapprehension that the truss rod is > primarily a strengthening device – and in some neck designs it pays an > important role in adding strength. However, the truss rod is also an > adjusting device, allowing you to change the relief of the neck to suit > your playing style, your choice of strings, and for seasonal changes in > the wood of the neck due to differing temperature and relative humidity. > With a graphite neck only the latter is rendered unnecessary – you set > the neck up once and it should remain set up until you *choose* to > change it for whatever reason. > Anyway…supposedly the Moses necks sound warmer than a typical all > graphite neck…any comments? > That would probably depend a lot on what it’s attached to. > — Derek > — > Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand > http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
Response:
Hi, I have an older Steinberger XQ, no truss rod. I guess the new Steinbergers coming out will use Moses graphite necks….which use truss rods. This seems ass-backwards to me. Isn’t the point of having a graphite neck suppossed to a neck that is the same, time after time? Argh. Anyway…supposedly the Moses necks sound warmer than a typical all graphite neck…any comments?
Response:
Maybe the truss rods are made out of wood? — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I have an older Steinberger XQ, no truss rod. I guess the new > Steinbergers coming out will use Moses graphite necks….which use > truss rods. This seems ass-backwards to me. Isn’t the point of > having a graphite neck suppossed to a neck that is the same, time > after time? > Argh. > Anyway…supposedly the Moses necks sound warmer than a typical all > graphite neck…any comments?