Question:
I’ve been following this thread with great interest, and will try to listen to some of the mentioned music. My question is, are these people in countries other than the U.S. making this music for $ or for fun? IOW, are they making a living at it, or creating for the sake of creation? Paul
Response:
> Is it safe to say that every combination or sequence of songs and notes have > been used already in songs? I honestly don’t know, but have been thinking > about it, and how many possible variations there can be, and that eventually > music will repeat itself. I mean, sure tempo, length, vocals, instruments, > strumming patterns, all change it up a bit. But speaking of chord and note > sequences only, have all possibilities been exhausted by songs that have > been written?
No not at all. A guy named Slonimsky wrote a book called "Thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns" which is basicly a manifesto directed at refuting this exact question. He basicly goes through just about every mathematical possibility of ordering notes and melodic lines, and it really is quite ridiculous when you look at all the possibilities. The book doesn’t even really get into chords which is a whole other area that, just on the basis of mathematics, would be many multiples larger than the possible ways to order single notes. BTW, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were even some things that he overlooked. And, all this stuff is looking at it in a very dry manner. It is only talking about the 12 equal tempered pitches and it is only talking about them as equal in length and equal in stress. It doesn’t even get into how one note might be held longer or shorter or stressed or just used in passing. All these things will effect how things are perceived in the music. And, the book has nothing to do with the endless amount of other variables that make up music…rhythm, dynamics…etc.etc.etc. There are probably even more possible variations of these elements then there are of just the 12 notes. So, all it does is look at just single note combinations in the most dry manner possible, to the exclusion of all other musical properties, and the possibilities are still enormous. You probably are getting this idea from the fact that it would seem like every pop song uses the same 3 chords and the same 5 notes, which is laughingly not much of an exaggeration. But, what is possible, and what is commonly used, are totally different things. If you tried to work out a percentage of what’s commonly used vs. what’s possible, you’d probably end up with a percentage in the low single digits. Josh
Response:
> I think we can go for a few more million years.
okay, that’s more comforting. I’d like to be able to come up with something original that sounds good. Thanks all.
Response:
I new an old street musician who swore that it all had been done before and we were just ripping off dead people when we wrote. I strongly disagreed but he would not budge. Think of how many different ways existing songs have been arranged. Each variations adds something (or in some cases, takes away) from the original. Now consider original compositions. Even if somebody else was using the same cord progressions, your rythems and style would make it sound different to the average listener. I think that we still have a long ways to go till we run out of creativity. Mike
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is it safe to say that every combination or sequence of songs and notes >have > been used already in songs? I honestly don’t know, but have been thinking > about it, and how many possible variations there can be, and that >eventually > music will repeat itself. I mean, sure tempo, length, vocals, instruments, > strumming patterns, all change it up a bit. But speaking of chord and note > sequences only, have all possibilities been exhausted by songs that have > been written? >Hi: >If you’re referring (if not, I apologize for this email) to commercial rock, >heavy metal, modern pop, etc.., then one journey into the world of >progressive rock may be what you need. Blending great melodies, >jazz/fusion riffs, classical pieces done via keys/mellotrons/hammonds, and >sometimes bizarre/unique vocals along with improvisational pieces, the music >never gets old and is always creative. And if you have an open mind to >foreign vocals, countries like Italy, Spain, Hungary, Sweden, France, >Germany and South America feature the best of the genre from the last 30 >years… The music is perhaps in similar category to that of Yes’ "Close >to the Edge" or Pink Floyd’s "Meddle"/"Atom Heart Mother"/"Ummagumma" only >way, way better. For those familiar with King Crimson, they’re also in >that category. The music does not get boring and requires repeated >listens over and over to catch additional riffs, melodies and tempos. >Caution: once you get hooked, you may never want to listen to the radio >(they never play this stuff on the radio because it’s not commercial) or >watch MTV/VH1 again. Italy, by far, has some of the best stuff you’ll ever >hear once you get passed foreign vocals. After hearing Alberto Radius >jamming with Formula 3 and II Volo in the 70’s, it’s sad that so few know >about him as he’s everybit as good as Hendrix/Clapton. And Hungary is >coming out with some awesome unique stuff. Masfel (a 1990’s hungarian >progressive rock outfit) features manic/chaotic guitar work backed by a >female cellist who plays hard/fast with a fury and some kick a– percussions >that put Mike Portnoy (of Dream Theatre) to shame ;-) And their bass >guitarist… Man o’ man how did he learn to play that fast?
Shredder bands! Woohoo…. I love traditional progressive rock but…..you know, I really wish some of these bands could realize that simply playing faster, utilizing more complex time signatures and changes, or by making the music "heavier" does not necessarily equate with creating emotionally moving music, which is what- I feel- has always been at the heart of progressive rock (all music?). They have every right to do what they want to do, but I wish they would listen to some jazz or something so they could get a clue about taste and clarity of expression… They just need help- period. I think I’m mainly talking about the newer wave of Dream Theater "inspired" bands- the so called "Prog-Metal" bands. I love DT but I haven’t otherwise heard a single Prog-Metal band that hasn’t been absolutely embarrasing to listen to and have since given up in trying to find interesting music in the genre. Is DT the Yngwie Malmsteen of bands? Not in terms of musical quality, but in the sense that he/they came around seemingly out of nowhere and inspired tons and tons of insipid musicians who spent lots of time practicing their scales to group together (rather than alone as previously done) to play really fast and complex dreck of nowhere near the quality of the original inspiration. Yngwie inspired the shredder crowd…now DT seems to have inspired the shredder-band crowd…IMO, anyway. It’s really great to be able to play really well and all but….*too* many of these bands really just want to show off chops- and the genre will continue to flounder in mediocrity because that goal is clearly at odds with artistry and striving to create rather than compete and showing off fast, tasteless playing, horrendous singing, abyssmal uncreative lyrics, and piss-poor compositional and improvisational skills. I belong(ed) to many mailing lists and have checked out most of the prog/prog metal bands that I heard about- they all were hideously, embarrassingly bad. Unlistenable. Maybe I’ve been checking out the wrong bands- I’ll stick with King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, and the other oldie prog bands as they sem to be the only ones with a clue. What was it about the 70’s…the drugs? Is it only me or is it only fitting that a division of *Shrapnel* (aka mid-late 80’s mega-shred) records is trying to become the label of choice for many prog/prog metal bands who can’t get a major label deal (most if not all). It strikes me as a perfect fit as in the 80’s Shrapnel was mainly interested in solo shredders….in the 90’s and now they’re interested in shredder-*bands*. Ugh….and the prog-metal guys are lining up at their doorstep.. Good luck in your quest for out shredding us all, guys…as a *band* it will be so much more fulfilling than those solo acts were… Dan Chernow Guitarist/Instructor BCM ‘94
Response:
> Is it safe to say that every combination or sequence of songs and notes have > been used already in songs? I honestly don’t know, but have been thinking > about it, and how many possible variations there can be, and that eventually > music will repeat itself. I mean, sure tempo, length, vocals, instruments, > strumming patterns, all change it up a bit. But speaking of chord and note > sequences only, have all possibilities been exhausted by songs that have > been written?
According to an article I read in college (1972), it was approaching the "theoretical limit" at that time. But only a tiny percentage of those melodies have been heard, even yet. Ya gotta rememebr, a lot of the combinations would make dud melodies! There’s plenty of good possibilities left. The Old Guy —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
Lets see major chords only, 13 one chord songs, 169 two chord songs, 2197 three chord, 28561 four chord, 371293 five chord. if using major, minor and seventh chords the first number goes up to 39, the second to 39 squared etc. Add in variation of rhythms Variation of melody, riffs, licks and hooks. Variation of words and vocal hooks. Instrumentation? I think we can go for a few more million years. Adrian
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Is it safe to say that every combination or sequence of songs and notes have >been used already in songs? I honestly don’t know, but have been thinking >about it, and how many possible variations there can be, and that eventually >music will repeat itself. I mean, sure tempo, length, vocals, instruments, >strumming patterns, all change it up a bit. But speaking of chord and note >sequences only, have all possibilities been exhausted by songs that have >been written? > Personally, I think the blues have been done to death, but I’ll be > happy enough to go around again. Need new lands to explore? Keep a > recorder handy when just noodling around, you’ll be surprized!
Response:
Is it safe to say that every combination or sequence of songs and notes have been used already in songs? I honestly don’t know, but have been thinking about it, and how many possible variations there can be, and that eventually music will repeat itself. I mean, sure tempo, length, vocals, instruments, strumming patterns, all change it up a bit. But speaking of chord and note sequences only, have all possibilities been exhausted by songs that have been written?