Question:
I realize it’s just old news, but some of us are just old farts…I’m (gasp and draw away in horror) in my mid-40’s and loved alternative as soon as I heard it, just as I loved intelligent rap, and punk, and new wave, and fusion, and prog rock and all clear back to psychedelia in my formative years, just as I love classical, jazz, folk (real American folk, which includes real country music, not the hot modern mislabelled stuff),ethnic folk, world music — especially loud stuff,heavy stuff,mind-blowing stuff, the stuff that kicks your butt straight out of this mundane existence…as far as I’m concerned, heavy metal started with Ludy Beethoven…I think a lot of alternative derives from tremendous talent or simply unquestioned surrender to the Muse (hence the word music,eh?), some of it transports me to ecstasy or pushes me onto the rage ride as much as Bach or Hampton or Cro-Mags do.So there. Biting the noses of all close-minded fascists I remain
Response:
I don’t think my first response made it, so here goes… >Ladies and gents, >I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through >them. So here goes:
Likewise > > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt > > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has > > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is. >Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support >this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a >chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet >you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference.
Okay, you are on. I can provide the chimp and the musician (and even the distortion). Some great musicians are either "alternative" or have played alternative music. Careful before accepting this bet, I play six-string bass, URB and Chapman Stick and a year’s supply of strings will be costly… > > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it > > can be conceived as music…it is music." >This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the >centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the >requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more >requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely >showcases talent.
Maybe you will consider only talent…. Music (noun) vocal, instrumental or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody or harmony Webster’s Tenth Edition I must have missed the part that said only ppl who are extremely talented can produce music. By dismissing alternative music as "crap," you are closing yourself off from a wide and inspiring musical world. >I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent."
I do, sometimes >By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there.
Well, niether do I…. >Peace, >Chris
This is not meant as an attack, etc just MHO… Jeff
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Music has 5 essential elements: > 1. Melody > 2. Harmony > 3. Rhythm > 4. Timbre > 5. Texture > You don’t even have to have all 5 elements present for it to qualify > as "music". Rap for example has very little melodic content…zero > harmonic content…monotonous timbres and textures…but it has > rhythm. Ergo, *some* people are willing to call it music. > OTOH, even alternative music (as simplistic as it is) contains all 5 > elements.
I seem to remember something like the above definition of music somewhere along the line, probably in college. It may be true for Western music, but not necessarily music in general. There are many cultures that have compositions written purely on percussive instruments, e.g., some forms of African music, and lest we not forget those Japanese percussionists. Also, I have heard music that seems to lack rhythm. For instance, Indian sitar compostions. We have definitions to help us describe what happens around us, it doesn’t mean it’s the end all by which all must be measured. If it looks and smells like music, then it’s music. :^) Dave
Response:
>>Ladies and gents,
And the rest of you form a semi circle….boy-girl, boy-girl…. >I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through >them. So here goes: >Yeah, and I just had to respond to this post…
Okay, me too! 
>> > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt >> > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has >> > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is.
Will SOMEBODY please define "alternative music" (and please w/o the flames). I mean, the very definition seems to imply something which is not "top 40, or Madison ave. approved commercial pop, etc…" However, now alternative is in vogue. So the people who call themselves "alternative" are pretty much going against everything that their non-conformist decendents believed in. >Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support >this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a >chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet >you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference.
While I don’t really like alternative music, I think that’s a bit harsh. >Bet you TWO years worth of strings that you CAN tell the difference >(careful now, I play six-string ……) I know of few lower primates >that could play Chili Peppers or Primus music.
I’m with you on the Chili Peppers. They’re awesome. But I don’t know many people who when listening to a band of chimps vs. Primus would be able to discern the difference. <G> Both would give me a headache within an hour. >> > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it >> > can be conceived as music…it is music."
Music has 5 essential elements: 1. Melody 2. Harmony 3. Rhythm 4. Timbre 5. Texture You don’t even have to have all 5 elements present for it to qualify as "music". Rap for example has very little melodic content…zero harmonic content…monotonous timbres and textures…but it has rhythm. Ergo, *some* people are willing to call it music. OTOH, even alternative music (as simplistic as it is) contains all 5 elements. >This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the >centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the >requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more >requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely >showcases talent.
Please define talent. This is treading dangerously close to ideas like "jumbo-shrimp", "rap-artist", "military-intelligence". >For now, at least, maybe YOU will consider talent, I’ll consider the >whole picture. There is a lot more being a musician than talent.
And never has this been more clearly defined than by the current crop of popular guitarists. >I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent."
Technique does not equate to talent. Technique is merely the physical abiltiy to express ideas. The more technique (chops) one has, the better you’re able to express more complicated ideas (that which goes beyond the Mel Bay 1 level). >I do when I hear some of it. >By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there. >She’s talented and has a good voice, but i don’t care for her music.
I have one of her CD’s. 3 or 4 good songs, and the rest is filler. >Not trying to start a flame war or anything, but what you just read >was entirely based upon opinion. Some thoughts to ponder….
Isn’t everything? >1) What makes music commercial shit??? Madonna is pretty commercial, >yet she has had some fantastic musicians play with her ….
a) Repetative, unimaginative, lifeless, passionless, riff-raff which was designed from conception for commercialism w/o any regard to making an honest musical statement. That’s my attempt to define "commercial shit". b) Madonna is a pretty good singer/songwriter…and yes, she does have some SERIOUS monsters in her band on any given day. >2) Maybe Alt music is just like any other type of music… there are >ppl who have a lot of musical talent and then there are some who do >not – this is true in practically every musical genre.
Agreed 100%. >3) What is music to you may not be music to someone else, and vice >versa…. it is based on opinion.
Correction: What is *good* music to you may not be *good* music to someone else….. CS — To reply, remove the pluses. (I do this to avoid spam)
Response:
>Ladies and gents, >I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through >them. So here goes:
Yeah, and I just had to respond to this post… > > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt > > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has > > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is. >Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support >this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a >chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet >you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference.
Bet you TWO years worth of strings that you CAN tell the difference (careful now, I play six-string ……) I know of few lower primates that could play Chili Peppers or Primus music. > > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it > > can be conceived as music…it is music." >This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the >centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the >requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more >requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely >showcases talent.
For now, at least, maybe YOU will consider talent, I’ll consider the whole picture. There is a lot more being a musician than talent. >I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent."
I do when I hear some of it. >By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there.
She’s talented and has a good voice, but i don’t care for her music. >Peace, >Chris
Not trying to start a flame war or anything, but what you just read was entirely based upon opinion. Some thoughts to ponder…. 1) What makes music commercial shit??? Madonna is pretty commercial, yet she has had some fantastic musicians play with her …. 2) Maybe Alt music is just like any other type of music… there are ppl who have a lot of musical talent and then there are some who do not – this is true in practically every musical genre. 3) What is music to you may not be music to someone else, and vice versa…. it is based on opinion. peace also…. Jeff
Response:
<Snip> > Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support > this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a > chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet > you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference.
This chimpanzee is currently in an alternative band. I figure out Jeff Berlin solos in my spare time (really). > This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the > centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the > requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more > requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely > showcases talent.
Putting down one form of music over another is rather elitist. There are certain types of music I personally can’t stand (thrash, death metal, etc.), but apparently somebody likes it. > I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent."
Your use of talent here is rather vague. If talent means ability, then it’s certainly not true. Sure, there has to be a certain level of competancy, but not everybody has to play like Steve Morse to put out an album. What you do with the chops you have are more important. I recently went from a band with players with monster chops to a more average (or, as I like to say, realistic) band. The newer guys lay back more and don’t try to awe the audience in every song with technique. Not only do I enjoy it more, but so does the populace. Remember, music is a perception. Us musicians do see music in a different light, but I believe one should keep in mind the perception of the untrained ear when playing or composing songs. > By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there. > Peace, > Chris
:^) Dave Enjoyin’ the ‘puter on a Sunday afternoon
Response:
A few artists who have been highly successful while being questionable musicians: Bob Dylan Neil Young Stones Beatles Chuck Berry Kiss Pretty impressive list so far… Disclaimer: I consider myself a "fan" of all these (well, except for Kiss); my point is that most of their music can be played by amateur musicians in bar-type bands. The obvious difference is one is a creator and the other is a copier. Let the flames begin!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > A few artists who have been highly successful while being questionable > musicians: > Bob Dylan > Neil Young > Stones > Beatles > Chuck Berry > Kiss > Pretty impressive list so far… > Disclaimer: I consider myself a "fan" of all these (well, except for > Kiss); my point is that most of their music can be played by amateur > musicians in bar-type bands. The obvious difference is one is a creator > and the other is a copier. > Let the flames begin!
I think the whole point is that chops are nice to have, but if you have something to say, you can say it with two chords and a one octave range (Dylan) or you can say it as a master of the instrument (Coltrane). If you don’t (and some don’t), chops aren’t going to help- you’ll just be annoying. There are examples of this in _every_ type of music! Jon Best FALSTAFF
Response:
> Peace? What a hypocrite! I’m pretty tired of all the music snobs out > there that constantly slag "alternative". I try to imagine the type: long > hair, metal kid, guitar-techno-geek, but who knows who you really are.
Funny thing about this. During the mid 60s when every kid in the neighborhood was in a garage band and half the stuff on the top 40 was worse than alternative, ’serious’ musicians(and parents) dismissed the whole 60s ’scene’ as ‘no-talent garbage’ in much the same way as what’s happening now. I’m not an ‘alternative fan’, but having once been on the ‘receiving’ end, I’m happy to see the kids doing it. I give them credit for coming up with something new. Perhaps in 5 or 10 years some really good talent will come out of it. Face it – teens drive the pop music business. Unfortunately for the X generation, there aren’t enough of you to really keep metal & punk going, as was the case with us boomers who didn’t like metal, but had plenty of ‘classic rock’ alternatives. Heck we still have the Stones 
Response:
|> |> Ladies and gents, |> |> I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through |> them. So here goes: |> |> > > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt |> > > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has |> > > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is. |> |> Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support |> this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a |> chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet |> you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference. Oh come on, that is about as sweeping a generalization as could possibly be made! First of all you are lumping a lot of music under "alternative" and a lot of it is more musical than you seem willing to admit. |> |> > > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it |> > > can be conceived as music…it is music." |> |> This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the |> centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the |> requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more |> requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely |> showcases talent. |> |> I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent." Who gives a rat’s ass about technique. All I care about is whether the music moves me. As far as talent, that’s subjective. There are plenty of musicians who were accused in their day of "not making music". Like Igor Stravinsky, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, the Beatles, James Brown. Oh yeah, and ALL rock and roll, at least to some people is not music but "a bunch of noise". And yes, if it can be conceived of as music it IS music. There’s a lot of music from outside of the US that might have a hard time being considered music by some folks. There’s a recording I’ve heard of pygmies slapping water in a river with their hands. Many drummers would sell their soul to be able to play such a groove. So is it music? Are those pygmies talented or not? By the way, I don’t care for most "alternative rock". So what? I’ve been listening to music for a long time and there has ALWAYS been plenty of bullsh*t out there to wade through. And all along I have been listening to people complain when something new came along that they didn’t like. Next time why not come up with a real argument and skip the chimpanzee experiments. — Brian Rost 3Com Corp. 508-264-1550 Monkey Island: a dance band for the new millenium
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ladies and gents, > I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through > them. So here goes: > > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt > > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has > > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is. > Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support > this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a > chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet > you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference. > > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it > > can be conceived as music…it is music." > This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the > centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the > requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more > requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely > showcases talent. > I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent." > By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there. > Peace, > Chris
Peace? What a hypocrite! I’m pretty tired of all the music snobs out there that constantly slag "alternative". I try to imagine the type: long hair, metal kid, guitar-techno-geek, but who knows who you really are. Lets set it straight for once and for all—if you like it, it IS good to you. And all the half-witted criticism by Satrianni-philes can’t change that. All through popular music history there has been technique obsessed "musicians" that every body else has to be held up to. Thank god the Stones didn’t just call it quits and start laying bricks after King Crimson was formed. I’m pretty tickled that Led Zep kept on after Yes showed the world how talented a rock band could be. And Allah be praised that Cheap Trick, KISS, Alice Cooper etc etc kept it up after Mahavishnu Orchestra started playing Jazz-Rock fusion. BTW I like all the above, plus alternative (my college years 83-87 were the time when this was being defined), plus some country, plus classical, plus jazz. See? You don’t have to hate anything just because you like something else. Grow up a little, open mind a little. Al
Response:
Ladies and gents, I HAD to-I just HAD to- respond to this post. Usually I browse through them. So here goes: > what she is talking about. Could you play their music? I highly doubt > it. True, *most* alternative is commercial shit nowadays, but that has > nothing to do with how well a musician the artist is.
Yes, I DO think any two-handed chimpanzee COULD play Alt music. I support this assertion with this experiment: Give an alt musician and a chimpanzee a guitar. Crank the distortion. Now, turn around. I’ll bet you a year’s worth of new strings you can NOT tell the difference. > more comment about what is and what isn’t music…again, I repeat: "If it > can be conceived as music…it is music."
This is the largest load of bullsh*t musicians have used through the centuries to dump the crapiest noise unto our ears. ONE of the requirements of what defines music is talent. Sure, there are more requirements. For now, at least, we’ll consider talent. Alt music rarely showcases talent. I do not hear alt music and think, "my, what technique. What talent." By the way, I do not care for Celine Dion much either. So there. Peace, Chris